Poll: Has Windows Ran Itself Into The Ground?
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YES! It Is Worthless!
15 71.43%
It's Still Ok.
6 28.57%
NO! Windows Is Fantastic!
0 0%
Total 21 vote(s) 100%
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Antique PC has me thinking
I can definitely say I have clients, family, and friends that use Linux desktops and laptops for a lot more than online.

Local non Internet activities:

1) Graphic design using programs like GIMP, Pinta, etc.

2) Creating DVDs using programs like Brasero.  Yes I still know people that create DVDs.

3) Transfer their iPhone or Android pictures and using programs like Shotwell for viewing.

4) LibreOffice for typing documents that are not sent over the Internet.

5) Print local files.

6) Take notes using programs like Zimwiki.

And the list goes on and on.  These again are all local and in most cases even non networked activities.

Steam is even working on Proton and plans to get their entire or at least most games to play on Linux. They want to leave Windows.

So Linux is far from just a network OS and that is a fact like it or not.
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
I personally read your points and you seem to not like a discussion or people challenging your points.

You sure like calling people fanatics.  This is after all a Linux forum and not a Windows forum.  So I am going to label you a Windows fanatic.

If one likes Windows fine continue using Windows.  No one is forcing one to switch to Linux.  I have even said some people should stick with Windows over Linux.  Linux doesn't meet every usage case.  That is true and fair enough.

However Linux is and can be a general system.  You seem to think just because Windows can do something like run GIMP that removes it from Linux.  So let's talk about what Linux is not doing:

- It is not spying on people
- It is not collecting data
- It is totally open for any edits to anything
- It has far less security issue

In fact for general office usage there is little need to use Windows but you seem to dismiss that point.  For most people who aren't heavy gamers there is little need to use Windows other than it is entrenched.   In fact the more people that switch to Linux the more support services will continue to grow.

Does Linux fact an uphill battle because it is not entrenched sure.  Should the community give up? No.

People here and other communities like Linux and many want the world to use it and you seem to have a problem with that.  If you don't like the community no one is forcing you to stay or continue to use Linux.  Microsoft and Apple are glad to data mine your computer.
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
(08-22-2019, 07:56 AM)TarsolyGer Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 04:04 PM)leon.p Wrote: In fact Xorg is still more advanced than whatever windows uses to draw graphics to the screen, and yet there is already a movement towards something even more advanced: Wayland. When it comes to the quality of the desktop, windows was alway behind and I doubt that will change in the near future.
I just read that Xorg doesn't have support for screen/session locking, therefore all screen locks are using some kind of "hack" to achieve the "appearance" of a locked screen, which locking process, if crashed, simply drops you back to the logged in user's desktop :/

I wouldn't call this a "hack", just a clever use of the X protocol. It is not insecure: If an application (like a screenlocker) force-grabs the input, no other applications (other then the X server itself) have acces to the input; Even the window manager can not see it, only reassign it. And the programs you have used before you locked your screen will always remain open, no matter what technology you use to display them onto the screen.

What I think is dangerous about screen lockers in X is that they are used without a basic watchdog. A very simple fallback mechanism: Check the return value of the screenlocker, if it is not zero, launch the screen locker again, if it fails more then 5 times in 30 seconds, end the display server session and log the user out.

And AFAIK, most wayland screenlockers work pretty similar; I have looked at the code of a few wayland programs. What a screenlocker like 'swaylock' does is not that much different from that a screenlocker on X does: Display a window and request the window to be displayed fullscreen above all other windows while also having the focus of all input devices. If it crashes, you are also back to your applications.

Only implementing screen locking into your compositor or window manager gets around this issue, but provides a bigger problem: The larger the code for security stuff, the less secure it is; And a decent Wayland compositor or window manager can be really large. So I'd rather use the standalone program.

What I believe will be the better option is faking a lock screen, by actually logging out the user but storing their session on the disk, similar to hibernation. If they log back in, their session will be restored. This should be easiely possible, so I am actually surprised nobody has done it yet.

EDIT: Another safe screen locking technique I just remembered is turning off TTY switching by keyboard (disabling the Ctrl+Alt+Number keybinds). Then the display manager can be used for locking, by automatically switching to a different TTY, where a different X server is running displaying the lock screen. Entering your correct password will cause the display manager to switch back to the TTY with your session. If the screen locking mechanism crashes, the worst that can happen is that you are dropped to a TTY login. Your session would actually still be open, but unreachable, unless you log in and either restart the display manager or switch to the correct TTY via a command.

I think 'lightlocker', which comes with 'lightdm', does it like this.
My website - My git repos

"Things are only impossible until they’re not." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard
I'm still not sure what it is I could do if I used Windows that I can't do on my Ubuntu OS.

(08-24-2019, 02:53 AM)leon.p Wrote: Only implementing screen locking into your compositor or window manager gets around this issue, but provides a bigger problem: The larger the code for security stuff, the less secure it is; And a decent Wayland compositor or window manager can be really large. So I'd rather use the standalone program.

Thanks for the thorough answer!
I have no idea how Windows 10 does the screen locking thing (in the NT days the idea was that no application can capture Ctrl+Alt+Del but the WM, so you can't fake a screen lock etc.).

I don't really have an in depth technical knowledge about this, but I would expect the system (either the window manager, or the graphics server) to know when it's screen lock time, and refuse to show anything but what the dedicated screen lock process tells it to show. In case of a bad implementation of a screen lock on X11, if an attacker manage to crash the underlying process with some tricky keypresses, or manage to move focus somewhere else on the desktop, they can circumwent the lock. If the underlying graphical system "knew" that the screen is locked, if the process crashes you get a black screen until systemd restarts it or the user powers off and on the PC. And of course, the graphical system would not let any key press, mouse movement or anything to be captured from there.
According to the author of xscreensaver, now the only secure way of doing this is having a process that keeps a constant grab on the keyboard and mouse while also shows the unlock screen AND is unbreakable, therefore must be very simple in code. No chance for accessibility features, or notifications from the desktop about a missed private message or e-mail.

Which is very sad.
My top 10 reasons to still use Arch after 2 months on my main PC at home.
(08-24-2019, 08:35 AM)aetesaki Wrote:
(08-24-2019, 03:11 AM)Richard Wrote: I'm still not sure what it is I could do if I used Windows that I can't do on my Ubuntu OS.

I can't see why you wonder. If all you use your computer for is networking, light office work, some multimedia, and some gaming, there's no reason for you to use Windows at all

"Light" office work?  I would like to know your definition of what that means to you.

I am going to address some of this in further detail not just directed at Aetesaki but for the general community and all else who stop by and read this thread.

We are also talking about multiple things at once.  I totally disagree with Aetesaki, obviously, that Linux is not a general usage system.  Now having said that people for personal and commercial/business applications have to decide if staying with Windows or even Mac is in their best interest.

For both applications there has be some underlying reason(s) to want to change which could be better security, less spying, more open, cheaper (in software licenses), interest, etc.  If someone or some company is happy with their current solution changing anything is a hard sell.  At the end of the day most people just want their computer system(s) to fulfill a basic need to process data.  Most people don't really care what the OS is or what it is called.  They just want the computer to work when they sit down.

However Windows continually throws up road blocks.  The Windows 10 issues continue to grow with really bad updates breaking computers (boot loops), deleting data, rebooting in the middle of productivity time, spying, etc.  The public is growing more and more aware of these facts as even the general news mentions these issues.

Is Linux perfect?  Of course not.  There is no foolproof totally problem free OS.

Now despite Aetesaki claims there are often solutions that get close or completely rival Windows solutions.  So let's look at some use cases:

1) Graphic design

On Windows and Mac you have software like the Adobe suite so apps like Photoshop and After Effects.  Well Adobe is putting more and more of the CS suite into the cloud which means that works on Linux.  However let's stay with local software.  Linux can run programs like GIMP which while not quite as fully rich as Photoshop is still very powerful and more and more used by graphic designers.   There is Blender for animations which is very advanced.  You also have other good programs like Darktable, Krita, and Inkscape.

Now, of course, the programs don't have 100% feature match with Adobe but even many professional movies use them for some effects.

2) Video production

On Windows and Mac people often mention Adobe Premiere although there are others like Sony Vegas or Corel VideoStudio.  There is no denying that Linux doesn't have quite the functions for video editing.  However for the vast majority of video editing the solutions on Linux more than meet the needs.  For example most editing needs the ability to cut videos (for mistakes as an example), splice in additional videos, add sound tracks or voice overlays, add transition effects, etc.  Well solutions like KdenLive and Open Shot perform these tasks.  You can, of course, hook up cameras to Linux for recording.

This leads us to OBS (Open Broadcaster Studio).  This is very advanced video capturing software that can preform some advanced functions like capturing multiple cameras at once.  This software is being used more and more by even Windows users over other Windows only software.  Obviously there are multiple solutions on Linux for single camera and less complex needs.

3) Gaming

There is no denying the vast majority of games have been code for Windows.  However a lot of success is being made by Steam.  Their Proton project now has a big block of Windows only titles running on Linux.  This technology is still being development and granted is not prefect but work is continuing.  This means many top level games from Steam's Library just work on Linux even those they were coded for Windows.  So less and less even high gaming is a hurl on Linux.

For more on game status check https://www.protondb.com

4) Software Development

Linux is still an excellent development platform especially for web and mobile.  There is no need for commercial or personal projects to develop on Windows for websites and Android or iOS other than habit.  Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby, SQL, Java, Javascript, NodeJS, Electron, etc.  All these are technologies that drive multi-billion dollar industries.  Linux is a great platform for developing these projects.  Heck even Microsoft itself released Visual Code Studio as an electron app for all OSes including Linux.  Microsoft realizes development on Linux is not small.

5) General Business

The vast majority of businesses are really just about record keeping and processing.  For example at the end of the day companies like Walmart are just record keepers.  They keep their inventory records and track sells.  Of course they need to track returns and employee records and such.  Still the point is there is opportunity here as Linux can easily replace Windows in these settings with little to no issues.

Also it is quite amazing how many even high business solutions are behind the times.  A lot of companies that make specialize software don't want to invest in making their software much better.  For example I was watching a video on Youtube recently where a cop was talking about one of the major software packages used in police cars to look up data on license plates was from the 90's.  It hadn't received major updates.  This is a trend many IT friends tell in my various industries.  Another example is a friend in the power plant control system software where one competitor is still using decade plus old software with no major updates.

What does this have to do with anything?  This leads me into a general comment there is certainly opportunity for Linux to grow and replace Windows if any company wanted to enter such a market and develop a solution for Linux.  Will this happen?  Probably not but the point is in many places Linux could grow into them.  I see this all over the place.

Now back business so many businesses don't have to stay on Windows especially with our highly connected world.  While I am not a fan more and more applications like Microsoft Office, Adobe CS, etc are moving to the "cloud" (Internet).  Plus more and more companies are using things like private label Google Documents and Gmail.

Yes I know I know this is "light" office work but key areas that used to bind most businesses to Microsoft like Exchange and Office aren't there any more.  The chains are gone.

There is so much opportunity for Linux to grow in general computing and many in the community will continue to push Linux.  This is marketing.  Linux has little in the way of marketing so those that care about it have to spread its word.  MS and Apple spend a lot of money with ads.  When was the last time you saw a Linux ad?  It does happen with IBM, for one, but it is very rare.

Also this is how something grows.  Linux advocates through various ways offer others choices.  After all many aren't aware they even have a choice when it comes to computers and computer systems.

I could continue into more areas but I think one gets the point.  Linux is a great general use OS and, of course, fits niches like media centers (Kodi, Plex, etc), servers, and IoT, etc very very well.

Finally to Aetesaki:

1) You are aware the EzeeLinux project is about bringing Linux to the general computing public for general computing?  If you are truly tired/upset/annoyed/whatever by this fact then you are in the wrong forum.  This is what Joe does here along with others like myself.

2) I do not think Linux is God.  I do not think any operating system or electronic is God.  You seem to think because I push for Linux including general operations and push back against your ideas I must do some daily ritual of worship.  Well I use Linux to fit all kinds of solutions, quite successfully and even for businesses too, so I guess you could say that is a form of worship.  So far though I haven't prayed to it.

3) I am not sure why you took a screenshot of your post.  That is odd.
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
FYI: The user known as aetesaki has been deleted and banned from this forum. I sent him a warning about his increasingly nasty posts in this thread and he responded by insulting me personally. This kind of behaviour is simply not tolerated here. EzeeTalk is supposed to be friendly and fun. While good natured debate is always welcome, name calling, thread hijacking and personal abuse are never OK. Feel free to report it when you see it so that a moderator can take care of it. Thanks
-- Your Fearless Leader!

Allow me to recenter to the initial topic, which is linux make old hardware back to life. This is undoubtedly True. I have my self at home some real old piece of hardware. I can not tell you exactly how old, but it was sold brand new with vista on it. This means it is older than 10 years (google told me win7 came out 10/22/2009) and it works real fine with a LM 19.2 XFCE on it. I had a try with LM 18 Cinamon edition, but it was real slow. Maybe someday i will try cinamon again with some nice swap to see if it solves the lag problem.

Well, i say it works well and it does, but at home almost no one use it in a daily base. I mostly use it for back up storage and to lent it to people who stay home over night if they need to. that is not often because every one has his smartphone. Smile

but this antiquity his far less powerful than the elias machine. it is :
-Intel core 2 solo processor 1.4 GHz
-4 Gb of Ram
-drive of 320 which is plenty for a spare machine.

i can not read anymore the label about the VGA.

Well all this just to say that this computer with windows would be totally useless. No way that it would run with vista (no updates) and this machine has more chances to go to space than working with windows 10. And i just said "working" not "working fine". I don't want to push it. Big Grin
To be honest, when thinking about not-so-light office work, my first thoughts were - well, SAP runs on Windows, and that's the biggest corporate management tool at least in Europe. And lo and behold - it is fully supported on RHEL and SuSE Enterprise.

On the 'old hardware' issue, well, I'm a chemistry major, worked in the pharma industry and now I'm a PhD candidate at a university, and in this world, we usually work with very expensive instruments, which should serve for decades if maintained properly, and of course, in the modern days, they are all computer-controlled. The problem is, that the software is usually Windows-only proprietary stuff, and, especially for some 90's stuff (which are still less then 30 years old, and well within their expected operational lifetimes!) they have to be connected through obscure ISA cards.
Of course as the manufacturers come out with newer products the old software are abandoned, which means you have to keep around an old PC with Windows XP on it to keep compatibility with the software originally written for Windows 3.1 (it is a real world example from our chemistry department!), because the connecting hardware driver also lost support after XP came out. The spread of viruses through USB drives is rampant due to this (those PCs are not connected to the LAN because of this, but you have to get your data somehow to your office PC).
I am still baffled, that the major, multi-million dollar corporations, who supply the worlds chemical industry with these stuff still not realized, that the life-cycle of the instrument is an order of magnitude longer than the software that comes with it. I mean, if it was Linux-based, or at least open-source, even if the maintainer lost interest in supporting the software, a pharma company could hire 3-4 programmers to pick up the software and port it to a new hardware, so you can use your perfectly operational equipment with up-to date software from a security perspective.
Maybe this is the niche market someone should start a start-up in?
My top 10 reasons to still use Arch after 2 months on my main PC at home.
My wife is a consultant. One of her clients is a woman who is one of the world's top Internet security experts. For months this client had been talking with the executives of Capital One about the holes in their Internet security. They were too cheap to pay to get their system made secure.

A few months later came this news announcement:

Quote:Capital One said on Monday that information from over 100 million people, including Social Security and bank-account numbers, had been compromised.

The people who run organizations don't want to pay to upgrade their systems until after the disaster. Then they have egg on their faces and they have to.


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