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Convincing Friends/Relatives To Use GNU/Linux
#11
So far the folks I have helped move to linux have been friends/family that have said, "Hey JT, how much will it cost me to have you build me a computer?" After I get their requirements I tell them I can save them an additional Benjamen with the OS as long as they don't specifically need a particular windows program. And of course then there are all the other software savings for office, photo, ect ...

At this point their eyes are glazed over and they are salivating. To seal the deal I sit them down at my computer and have them play for a while. (At this time I usually start cleaning up the drool and wiping the glaze from their eyes.) They usually wind up saying something along the lines of, ' This is great, but I when do  start to learn Linux?' With Xfce they often think I just have an older version of windows.

This said, the people I have moved over seldom use more than a browser, skype, email, and solitaire.

In conclusion, Linux tends to sell itself to the general populous of folks that don't use a computer for their work. Understand I am an old fogy and my friends/family are old too. Back when I was younger we used to invent stuff like rocks, and then after we refined the process, dirt followed. That was a good time!
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#12
The real question would be "How to convert Windows users to Linux if their installation isn't broken or infected?"!

My conversion story is pretty much the same; friend has broken Windows install, I keep telling friend to switch over to the light side, eventually I get access to friend's laptop, I install Ubuntu Bionic, I configure a few things beforehand, I give him a quick rundown of how to open Firefox, the settings and how to power off the laptop and I let friend explore the rest himself (he uses his smartphone like 90% of the time, so it's not an issue).
Name: Sandy Vujaković
Laptop: Dell Inspiron 3793 (17", i5)
OS: Ubuntu Groovy Gorilla
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#13
(08-28-2018, 02:53 AM)Victarr Wrote: So far the folks I have helped move to linux have been friends/family that have said, "Hey JT, how much will it cost me to have you build me a computer?" After I get their requirements I tell them I can save them an additional Benjamen with the OS as long as they don't specifically need a particular windows program. And of course then there are all the other software savings for office, photo, ect ...

At this point their eyes are glazed over and they are salivating. To seal the deal I sit them down at my computer and have them play for a while. (At this time I usually start cleaning up the drool and wiping the glaze from their eyes.) They usually wind up saying something along the lines of, ' This is great, but I when do  start to learn Linux?' With Xfce they often think I just have an older version of windows.

This said, the people I have moved over seldom use more than a browser, skype, email, and solitaire.

In conclusion, Linux tends to sell itself to the general populous of folks that don't use a computer for their work. Understand I am an old fogy and my friends/family are old too. Back when I was younger we used to invent stuff like rocks, and then after we refined the process, dirt followed. That was a good time!

While not applicable to many things rocks and dirt are still very important materials.  So thanks for that.  Wink
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
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#14
(08-28-2018, 11:55 AM)cleverwise Wrote:
(08-28-2018, 02:53 AM)Victarr Wrote: So far the folks I have helped move to linux have been friends/family that have said, "Hey JT, how much will it cost me to have you build me a computer?" After I get their requirements I tell them I can save them an additional Benjamen with the OS as long as they don't specifically need a particular windows program. And of course then there are all the other software savings for office, photo, ect ...

At this point their eyes are glazed over and they are salivating. To seal the deal I sit them down at my computer and have them play for a while. (At this time I usually start cleaning up the drool and wiping the glaze from their eyes.) They usually wind up saying something along the lines of, ' This is great, but I when do  start to learn Linux?' With Xfce they often think I just have an older version of windows.

This said, the people I have moved over seldom use more than a browser, skype, email, and solitaire.

In conclusion, Linux tends to sell itself to the general populous of folks that don't use a computer for their work. Understand I am an old fogy and my friends/family are old too. Back when I was younger we used to invent stuff like rocks, and then after we refined the process, dirt followed. That was a good time!

While not applicable to many things rocks and dirt are still very important materials.  So thanks for that.  Wink
You're welcome. It's the least I could do for the survival of the species...  :oP
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#15
How I converted my grandmother:
Her laptop is quite old (my mother used it before) meaning that it is rather slow.
She once gave it to me and said to make it faster.
So I installed debian on it and she did not even notice the difference,
since she only uses a webbrowser.

How I converted my mother:
My mothers windows installation had a habbit of breaking itself.
Everytime she had a problem, I'd recommend linux to her.
One times the windows installation was beyond repair,
so she let me install debian on her laptop and it has been working without problems ever since.

How I converted a few friends:
I study physics and most of my friends are also studying some hard science,
so this was rather easy.
We have to write stuff in LaTeX all the time and programming in Python and C are quite mportant as well.
You can of course do these things on windows, but they turn out to be a pain to install and maintain,
so I converted about 7 people in the first three months.
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#16
The problem with Linux is it is not "user friendly". I mean it has no simple step-by-step guide system for new users. Not a GUI based system as such, but a document etc.

Just having a couple of text files that are pointed to on the setup/startup screen etc, of how to in "simple-terms" setup-printers, devices, learn the terminal bash commands with a simple tutorial process, or save/copy/update/clean/autoremove basics, or how to arrange some simple settings on your internet.

Just mentioning and explaining the security system of Linux & why you don't need so much at present.

A simple guide to install and run many things is mostly what is missing. Maybe an option to turn on or off guides at the install or login screen with a tick-box that stays there always would help.

Things that are simple and user-friendly, as even installing a printer can be impossible for most or all if it is not Linux supported.

I didn't stick with Linux ages ago because it was too difficult (seemingly) compared to this Mint Tara 19 that seems the way to go. BUT, more security seems to be necessary as it will probably become a lot more popular.

I am a beginner of Linux (previously thought it was just a foreign version of a paid OS so just stuck with windows).

It is still too awkward for the average user as the average user doesn't want to / or has not got the time to learn an awkward system. If they can't just click and go, they will have to get-stressed learning the command line with little guidance except youtube tutorials and websites.

They would probably say "I shouldn't have to do it's job for it".

So a step-by-step guide your grandmother could follow is required for most non-Linux users, before they will ever use LInux (plus more exposure to it's existence and what it is as most have not heard about it at all or only that it exists somewhere? and is probably costly and awkward to learn etc).

That's just my new-Linux user view.
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#17
(09-08-2018, 05:40 PM)dai-3 Wrote: I mean it has no simple step-by-step guide system for new users.
[...]
A simple guide to install and run many things is mostly what is missing.
[...]
So a step-by-step guide your grandmother could follow is required for most non-Linux users, before they will ever use LInux.

That is not a linux problem, that is a general problem with all operating systems.
I would even go so far as to say that linux distributions like *buntu or Mint do a way better job at explaining themselves than windows does. Some even have these fancy welcome screens.


And in all honesty, of all people I know that don't know how to install programs or a printer in linux, I am certain than more then half of them can't to that in windows either.


In the end it comes down to what you are used. Linux is user friendly.
The problem is that many people are used to different operating systems and try to use their windows or macos knowledge on Linux, which will mostlikely fail.


I can't remember where I've read it, but I once read about a study that showed that the GNOME-3 desktop is easier for people who have never used a computer in their live than the windows desktop.
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#18
(09-08-2018, 05:54 PM)leon.p Wrote:
(09-08-2018, 05:40 PM)dai-3 Wrote: I mean it has no simple step-by-step guide system for new users.
[...]
A simple guide to install and run many things is mostly what is missing.
[...]
So a step-by-step guide your grandmother could follow is required for most non-Linux users, before they will ever use LInux.

That is not a linux problem, that is a general problem with all operating systems.
I would even go so far as to say that linux distributions like *buntu or Mint do a way better job at explaining themselves than windows does. Some even have these fancy welcome screens.


And in all honesty, of all people I know that don't know how to install programs or a printer in linux, I am certain than more then half of them can't to that in windows either.


In the end it comes down to what you are used. Linux is user friendly.
The problem is that many people are used to different operating systems and try to use their windows or macos knowledge on Linux, which will mostlikely fail.


I can't remember where I've read it, but I once read about a study that showed that the GNOME-3 desktop is easier for people who have enver used a computer in their live than the windows desktop.

In windows I didn't need to install a printer, as I had a CD or it auto-downloaded from plug-n-play update. And with the windows being harder to learn; schools use windows all over the UK, they don't use MAC/Linux, so yes it is not a problem with Linux, but then again don't expect people to like Linux if youdon't cater for them and only Linux users. That's why Mint exists & Zorin, though because Zorin apparently doesn't work well enough, but is more like windows, it isn't used a lot.

Linux has a bit of an identity issue also. Too many distros not enough focus.
In my noobie experience and preference, in the "GENERALLY OFFERED DISTROS", There should only be about four maximum, with obvious differences.
Such as:

Mint = Windows crossover for non-techie new users who just want to use the net / shop / and print docs etc. More
           automation etc.

Ubuntu = A bit more of a focused more difficult non-new user version. Less automation etc.

Another for "solo" install systems for gaming, art-design or BLENDER animation work etc (self-customised).

Another for a blank slate version for more of a command line /scientific usage etc. But still not a non-explained system etc.

Then maybe if people focused on less distros and more improvements, more useful work would be done (like writing printer installers for non-supported printers currently etc). More security systems, More Theme/Personalisation options, fixing the word / libre .doc / .odt issues.  The stuff people actually need to work to make money/apply for jobs through e-mail (not expecting the receiver to have Linux to read an .odt file etc). Many bugs are to be fixed for many things. But another distro version will probably be created soon, so people might be slow to resolve the bugs etc, if at all?

Choice is nice, but not if it's a choice between working not properly and working, not properly.  The whole world does not use Linux, that's just the way it is; & the whole world is unlikely to change to Linux. Especially if they can't send out a CV because of an .odt issue.  The same issue is present with other open source software like open office.  It's fine to another version of open office, but not to others.

Yes Linux is a great system for a business that is not using it for a document provider, but a server or artwork design etc, but the average business uses document provision regularly (word/excel) and cannot afford their clients to not be able to read the docs.

I do like Linux & would have liked to understand it many years ago, as I would also have liked to learn programming many years ago, but it does not seem that at present it is for the masses.  Though youtube probably helps advertise it more these days.

And getting a few people to understand it from me teaching them is fine, but not for people I don't know Smile
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#19
(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: In windows I didn't need to install a printer, as I had a CD or it auto-downloaded from plug-n-play update.

Installing printers in linux is also easy as long as your distribution ships the drivers in its repository.
This is a problem with printers, not with Linux.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Linux has a bit of an identity issue also. Too many distros not enough focus.
In my noobie experience and preference, in the "GENERALLY OFFERED DISTROS", There should only be about four maximum, with obvious differences.

I am a bit tired of hearing things like "There are too many distributions", because: No! There are not too many distributions.
Every single one of them has a right to exist, because they all cater to different people.
You can not just abstract all computer users into four big groups.

Distributions are quite different to one another.
And with that I don't mean the default desktop themeing, but rather package management,
repositories, kernel, release model, age of software, preinstalled software,
preconfigured software vs vanilla software, init, etc.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Then maybe if people focused on less distros and more improvements, more useful work would be done

That is not how the Linux ecosystem works.
People running distributions usually do not contribute to the software they ship.

You absolutely have to differentiate between software provider and software developer.

Developers are distribution independent to begin with.
So less distributions will not increase the ammount of people working on specific software.
Overall it will mostlikely just decrease the people working on / with linux in general.

This does also mean that no work is wasted:
If people contribute to software, it can be used by everyone,
indenpendent of the distribution used by the developer or the distribution you are using.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: like writing printer installers for non-supported printers currently etc.

The installer already exists and works splendid, the problem is with the drivers.
And this is an issue with printer manufacturers not releasing linux drivers, not a linux problem.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: More security systems

No, because the people who are working on that are already working together.
If the debian security team for example finds a problem, they share it.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: More Theme/Personalisation options

This is a software issue, not a distribution issue.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: fixing the word / libre .doc / .odt issues. 

Again, this is the task of the office-suite developers.
People running the distributions have literally nothing to do with this.

And even going to LibreOffice and complaining to them is wrong,
because it is microsofts fault.
If their standards were open instead of closed, this would not be an issue.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: The stuff people actually need to work to make money/apply for jobs through e-mail

Many people are already doing work on Linux (me included) without having problems.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Many bugs are to be fixed for many things. But another distro version will probably be created soon, so people might be slow to resolve the bugs etc, if at all?

Nope, because the developers of some software absolutely do not care about what distributions exist.
They don't all of the sudden lose developers because some distribution appears.

Please don't mistake the people who provide you with software with the people who created that software.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Choice is nice, but not if it's a choice between working not properly and working, not properly.

Linux in general works perfectly fine.
The problem comes when people want it to be windows.
Linux is not windows and although Linux is extremely customisable, windows ideas won't properly work in a unix-oid environment.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: The whole world does not use Linux, that's just the way it is

Roughly every large server on this planet uses either Linux or one of the BSDs.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Especially if they can't send out a CV because of an .odt issue. 

You should never send important documents in an editable format in the first place.
If it is important, sent it as PDF.

(09-08-2018, 06:38 PM)dai-3 Wrote: it does not seem that at present [Linux] is for the masses.

That is debatable.
I would argue that people are just used to windows.
If schools and officials started using it, there would be no such problem

People often confuse being used to something with actual user friendlieness or intuitive design.
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#20
Hmm, ok so every Linux distro has an entirely separate team? If this is the case why is there a need for zorin if it a "windows 7" type of model, and also linux mint that caters for the same thing?

Also with printers, I meant make drivers not installers, sorry.

And when I mean an identity issue, I mean many people continue to distro-hop to find the best one not knowing which is best as it's too confusing to decide if any have a better system unless your actually needing that sort of system.

Why do people distro-hop? Boredom?

Remember the title of the thread...."Convincing Friends/Relatives To Use GNU/Linux"
Saying it's the printer manufacturers fault is not going to make it work. So it is less likely to convince relatives to use it if all their current "gear", won't work on Linux.

I quite like Linux and would have liked it to be like it is 10 years ago with Linux mint 19 Tara, but it wasn't so it put me off. I was the one that needed convincing, only now does it seem appropriate when I don't want to buy another computer and don't need lots of documents for college or work/printing/messaging of word.docs or similar etc.
I'm just currently learning a little BASH and using the browser in general.

Before I installed Linux I thought I could just buy a newer Laptop if it failed, but it hasn't so far. That's about the only reason I have kept it, it still works. Otherwise if I hadn't stumbled across a youtube video or two about Linux Mint, I would have just bought a new laptop in windows 10.

I am the "other people".

So just saying it's "their fault", Linux is fine, doesn't encourage anyone. I didn't know which version to get until I looked for a few days at different videos, and Mint was recommended as close to windows.

Am I to get people to do that before I convince them, and only mint is advisable, as others are too difficult for beginners/ or too annoying to learn for web browsing / docs/printing/ scanning etc. So I think that Linux will just never be popular to the "masses" until it is more auto-mated, or at least has an option for it to be selected with a step-by-step etc. That's just my view of family and general population attitudes towards the issues of doing this sort of stuff. If you don't want an automated version, don't ask people to get new users, as they want automation Smile
Catch 22.
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