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Convincing Friends/Relatives To Use GNU/Linux
(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Hmm, ok so every Linux distro has an entirely separate team?  If this is the case why is there a need for zorin if it a "windows 7" type of model, and also linux mint that caters for the same thing?

They actually don't cater to the exact same user base, although they are admittably quite similar.
Yes, zorin tries to be as close to windows 7 as possible, it even ships wine configured by default.
Linux Mint is designed for new users, but does not try to recreate windows wherever possible;
It stays true to its origin and doesn't try to hide the fact that Linux and Windows are different.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: And when I mean an identity issue, I mean many people continue to distro-hop to find the best one not knowing which is best as it's too confusing to decide if any have a better system unless your actually needing that sort of system.

It is true that quite a number of people do distro hop.
This can have a number of reasons.
Sometimes their requirements change, sometimes they are not satisfied.
But this does not actually hurt linux itself, just the time of that user Tongue

I would recommend that everyone should read the discription of a distribution before trying it out,
as that could avoid finding out you don't belong to a distros user base the hard way.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Why do people distro-hop? Boredom?

Or to test new software.
If a non-advanced user wants to try a different desktop environment,
they prefer installing another distribution over replacing the desktop environment manually, which is fine.
Or maybe they now need different things then when they started.

The truth is, technically, you could do everything with every distribution.
The problem with that however is, that not every user is capable or wants to dig behind the scenes of their system
and instead rely on installing preconfigured distributions.
(Otherwise we'd all be using Gentoo Smile )

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Remember the title of the thread...."Convincing Friends/Relatives To Use GNU/Linux"
Saying it's the printer manufacturers fault is not going to make it work. So it is less likely to convince relatives to use it if all their current "gear", won't work on Linux.

Sure. But we, here at linux, can do nothing about that,
because it is the printer manufacturers fault.

We could technically reverse engineer the driver for every single printer out there,
but that is more work than could possibly be done.

Printers are sadly lacking a good standard, as every printer has their own driver and talks to the computer differently.
If we had such a common standard, printer support would be better.

What I usually do is to recommend HP printers, as they have good linux support.
(I have guided my mom through the installation and setup of one over the phone, without one of us beeing frustrated in the end Smile )

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: I quite like Linux and would have liked it to be like it is 10 years ago with Linux mint 19 Tara, but it wasn't so it put me off.

Look at windows ,10 years ago.
I would be surprised if anyone would use that even over modern windows.

It is called software development for a good reason.

And yes, linux made plenty of progress in the last ten-ish years.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: I was the one that needed convincing, only now does it seem appropriate when I don't want to buy another computer and don't need lots of documents for college or work/printing/messaging of or similar etc.
I'm just currently learning a little BASH and using the browser in general.

I converted to Linux back in school ("Gymnasium", the german equivalent of a high school)
when I had to write an important paper for a class but my windows 10 was beginning to slow down quite a bit at that time (3min just to boot followed by yet another minute to let it calm down before it was usable) and crashing constantly.

I found out about Linux in a video on youtube comparing ubuntu to windows and was immediatly hooked.

It is safe to say that switching to linux saved me from a few frustrating nights with windows.

And now in university, I am quite happy that I use Linux, as the workflow I have developed with it is much faster than anything I could have achieved with windows.
People are usually in awe when they see how easy (and also native) things can be done in linux, especially when compared to windows,
like programming python or writing documents in LaTeX.
Most people use some web services for that, while I can do both natively on my laptop, with my prefered text editor, at a high speed and on the go where I don't have internet.
Most students I know, me included, achieve at least 10 hours train travel time per month, so being able to work on the go is quite important.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Before I installed Linux I thought I could just buy a newer Laptop if it failed, but it hasn't so far.  That's about the only reason I have kept it, it still works.

That is a good reason.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: Otherwise if I hadn't stumbled across a youtube video or two about Linux Mint, I would have just bought a new laptop in windows 10.

Same here.
I must admit: before using Linux, I was quite tech illiterate,
maybe because windows hides anything advanced from the user,
maybe because it did not occur to me what things could be done with a computer once you think outside of the corporate box.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: So just saying it's "their fault", Linux is fine, doesn't encourage anyone.

Maybe not, but it is the truth.
Saying the truth is always better than to lie about a problem or to just ignore it.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: I didn't know which version to get until I looked for a few days at different videos, and Mint was recommended as close to windows.

You will always have to do research when it comes to computer parts.
You have to research before choosing a distribution,
just like you have to research before choosing a motherboard or graphics card, processor or any component.

Luckily most linux distributions are very clear about what they are.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: So I think that Linux will just never be popular to the "masses" until it is more auto-mated, or at least has an option for it to be selected with a step-by-step etc.

Again, the automation is technically already there.
If you ever used a printer which has linux support and which drivers are in the repository of your current distribution,
some distributions will automatically search and install the driver for you.

The problem is with manufacturers not releasing drivers for linux or using a bad license for them.

And linux has actually very good hardware support.
Most devices can just be plugged in, because they use common standards
(Like webcams, keyboards, mice, joysticks, controllers, screens, etc).

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: That's just my view of family and general population attitudes towards the issues of doing this sort of stuff.

In my experience, most people are fine with doing slightly more complicated things,
as long as they never have to touch it again.

(09-10-2018, 06:43 PM)dai-3 Wrote: If you don't want an automated version, don't ask people to get new users, as they want automation Smile

But we can have both!
That is why there are different distributions.

I myself use Parabola, but I would never advise someone new to Linux to use it.
Instead I usually tell them to go for ubuntu, as that is user friendly
and because I have enough experience in ubuntu to support them when they have problems.
(Ahltough if I can set up their computer for them, I will choose debian, as that basically never breaks)
I thought I would expand a little on leon.p's great answers.

Hmm, ok so every Linux distro has an entirely separate team?  If this is the case why is there a need for zorin if it a "windows 7" type of model, and also linux mint that caters for the same thing?

Correct.  They are done by separate people (mostly).  The core Ubuntu MATE people actually work on Ubuntu vanilla/proper.  So there are some exceptions.  Still most distros are different people that take other's work (like Debian or Ubuntu) and add their unique ideas and twists.  In fact the vast majority of desktop Linux is based on Debian.  Ubuntu takes Debian and does their thing. Then a lot of teams take Ubuntu and do their thing.  In some cases a team is one person and in others it is dozens.

Why do people distro-hop? Boredom?

While many distro hop there are many that don't or at least do it very rarely.  I, for one, have been using the same desktop distro the whole time on this workstation: Ubuntu MATE.

Saying it's the printer manufacturers fault is not going to make it work. So it is less likely to convince relatives to use it if all their current "gear", won't work on Linux.

The printer state is worse than most realize.  I have often wondered why the printing companies don't standardize even internally.  For example why isn't there a single Canon driver? A single Lexmark driver? A single Panasonic driver?  There isn't.

You'll find even for Windows a driver from Canon will support five, six, seven printers and that's all.  Then another Canon line will need an another driver. Then another Canon line will need another driver.  It is all ultra dumb.  The printer companies should at least say okay all new printers will use the Canon unified driver.  The printer could, via firmware, tell the driver what it supports.

ZFS does this for different versions.  If you have different ZFS systems talk to each other they will both say what features they support and it works fine.  The features not supported by the other will just be ignored.

This is all extra work even on say Canon to keep having dozens of different drivers.  Still we need a standard like USB is a standard or DVD is a standard.   This is beginning to happen with so called driverless printers.  There is a standard that is slowly, very slowly, being rolled out.  In reality there is a driver.  It is just built into the OS (Windows, Linux, Mac).  In 2018 we shouldn't need a separate driver and that is the fault of the printer vendors period.

Printers are a pain even on Windows with thousands of drivers.  It is the last main hardware component that is done this way.  Webcams are usually plug and go.  External hard drives are plugin and go.  Speakers are plugin and go.  Monitors are plug and go.

Nvidia doesn't maintain dozens of drivers.  If you look their drivers support hundreds of cards.  However I have seen Windows have an ultra time with printers like Panasonic.  It has no idea what to do with those printers.

I agree for ultimate compatiblity HP is the best.  However I found most Canon's work.  Still one should check a list before just buying a random printer.  A modern Linux like Mint or Ubuntu or Ubuntu MATE supports hundreds of printers that just plug and print.

So I think that Linux will just never be popular to the "masses" until it is more auto-mated, or at least has an option for it to be selected with a step-by-step etc.

A lot of this is now automated.  For starters you can get Linux preloaded from companies like Dell, HP, System76 (best IMO), and even plenty of small shops.  Then if one buys a HP printer there is a 99.9999% chance it will just work by plugging it in and letting Linux auto configure the printer and scanner (if it has one).  That is to say if a main stream distro like Mint, Ubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc is used.

Almost all other standard hardware works like webcams, external drives, joysticks, mice, microphones, etc. without any need for additional drivers.  They are just built into Linux.  This isn't true with Windows that often needs the unique vendor driver.  Windows is actually the pain, not to mention all those stupid little updater programs.  The webcam uses a little updater.  The mouse uses a little updater.  The keyboard wants a little updater.  That is the user unfriendly system and not Linux.

If you don't want an automated version, don't ask people to get new users, as they want automation

There are plenty of Linux users that have that automation.  The reverse is true with Windows.  The world just lives with Windows pain because they don't know better.  The reality is going with paired hardware like Dell or System76, for example, preinstalled with say Ubuntu most users will have little to no issues.

That is not true with Windows hardware where all kinds of problems popup.  Oh the Java updater crashed!  Oh the registry isn't working right.  Oh ransomware just infected the system.  Oh I just plugged in a USB drive and Windows blue/black screened of death.  Windows systems are constantly having all kinds of issues.

Yes Linux systems can have issues.  Still good hardware and Linux will have far less issues than good hardware with Windows. Of course you have hardware issues (bad hard drive, CPU going, poor PSU) on any OS.  No OS can override a bad hard drive for example.

Hardware matters.  It is not all the same.  There are better mainboards, better PSUs, better RAM, better video cards, etc.  My workstation was custom built by me using good hardware and runs Linux like a champ.   However you should keep in mind even Windows will be more buggy on poor hardware.  The hardware quality matters period.  However Linux often runs better than Windows even on crappy hardware.
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
Greetings evryone,

i read a lot of interesting things in your posts, but i am not gona answer to them. Instead, i gona tell you in a pragmatical way what i am doing right now (since yeasterday) to see if i can switch a new user to linux.

My father , 73 YO, who had his first computer after he retired from truck driver professional life. I am not 100% sure but i think his first laptop was a windows 7. Just to say it is not that long ago.
Enought with the introduction, my point is: he is having some issues with his windows 10.

The first big one, was in last august MS did an update and his wifi just spoted working. His printer also stoped working. I went there to see what i could do. First thing first, i tried to connect the PC throught ethernet, but it was not working. Second thing i did: i booted the computer from my mint bootable flash drive, not to installing it, but to use the live environement to check if the wi-fi worked there. My intention was to verify if it was an hardware probelm or not, and it was not, i could connect to the wifi in the live environement.
About the printer problem, i used my own laptop (LM 18.3) to check if the problem was his computer or the printer. It happend the problem was with his computer.

So it wasn't an HW problem for either of the problems. After some time googeling, i was solutionless, and we just decided to restart the computer, with the MS tool to wipe out the all system and install W10 like in day1. And it worked untill yeasterday (so for a mounth or maybe a mounth and half)

Yearsterday, his wireless printer stoped working agian, i went there with my second laptop, an old acer machine i bought new back in the days with vista on it, but working with LM19 now a days.
He had to print some document for the taxes offices, and we did it with this laptop i brought with me.

So at that point he knows i am not running windows, he doesn't even know the name of the os, but he knows he is tired of his windows troubles and my os seems like a solution to him. And i know my father and patince are two differents things Smile

So here is what i did, i told him i can change is HP laptop to work as mine, but i made the thing perfectly clear that there is no ways back. But i also told him that he can keep this acer PC til late november (just because is my parents anniversary, no other reasons Smile ) just to see if it is better, worst or the same for him. Because he is tired with windows, he is Ok for trying it.

Now here is what i think, since my old man spends 90% of his computer use in the internet checking his e mails or comparing prices for things he want to buy, the others 10% printing doccuments he needs, i thing by late november, he will be tell me to kill windows.

BTW to make his life easier, and since timeshift is a thing, i set the update as automatic, so he don't have to worry about it. Do you thing it is a mistake? And if so, how big?

Again, sorry to falling in the topic like some parachutist, but i feld like i shouldn't open a new topic to share it.

Thank you for thaking time reading my post.
Thanks for sharing @Tuxinho!

This is becoming more and more common.  Linux is often attacked as the user unfriendly OS that only nerdy and geeky people use or even can use.  The reality is in most cases it is the other way around.  In fact if people had been using Linux and Windows showed up hardily anyone would ever want to adopt that inferior system. (You always have tech testers)

Also situations like your Father aren't being reported or gathered in mass.  There is good evidence from multiple sources that the Linux desktop usage is far far far greater than the so called "official" numbers.  People are indeed leaving Windows more and more and this includes a growing number of average computer users.

Now as for Timeshift it is fine to leave it automatic.  I would just check the disk space usage from time-to-time.  However you are fine.
Jeremy (Mr. Server)

* Desktop: Ubuntu MATE
* Windows are for your walls, Apple is for your health, Linux is for your computer
Yes, i think there is probably a lot of people running into the same kind of problems: in slidly more than a mounth, two windows updates messing with the system (printer and internet the first time and printer only the second) so i guess it should be many people tired having windows problems.

As far as my short linux exirience goes, i think LM it is realy newbie friendly so i have no problem advising people with realy tiny computer expirience trying linux mint. Also cinamon desktop looks realy familiar for someone who's used to windows. But my point is: people doing the LTS distros are doing an amaizing job and delivering working material. Working and simple, mutch simpler than windows to be honest.

About the disk, it is a 320 Go hard drive, we'll maybe fine with it, but i will keep an eye on the disk space anyway. Thank you @cleverwise for the advice

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